An annotated apology

[oakenguy]

Recently a mailing list I'm on had a mini-flamewar after a poster made some comments about weight. After a couple days of being jumped on he posted this, and I think it's an educational example of all the ways an "apology" can go horribly wrong.

Let's take a look:

I was wrong in the way I responded to the reply to my original post on the
Boston Globe article.  I apologize to anyone I have offended.  My writings
were in anger and disgust as everything I said seemed to be discounted due
to issues with weight.  I could have thought more before I acted and
responded (or not) in a more PC manner.  Even though I feel I could lose
another 5-10 pounds I am on the thinner end of the spectrum.  Being so I
often find myself in the position to hear whispered comments and opinions
from others on weight issues that would not be said in earshot of heavier
people.  Yet I seem to be the minority in having the courage to say it
publicly.  I have had this identical discussion on other boards.  Personally
the weight issue is a sexual turn off for me.  However I do have close
friends very dear to me that are large and some share the same view as
myself and some don't.  "Your kink is not ok with me but it's ok for it to
be ok for you".  A fundamental that is too often forgotten by myself.  For
that I sincerely apologize as it was not my right to speak out as harshly as
I did.

Okay, let's summarize the mistakes here, in no particular order:

* "I was wrong in the way I responded"...has an implicit 'however, my response, which was to say that I felt that fat people aren't attractive and shouldn't be out in public in revealing outfits, was still perfectly valid. I should just have phrased it better.'

* "responded in a more PC manner". This is the second time in a week I've seen 'PC' used as a synonym for 'not dumb and rude', and that's just because I haven't been looking.

* "I often find myself in the position to hear whispered comments...that would not be said in earshot" See, he's not being a jerk, he's actually a spy behind the lines of the thin, returning to pass on the information he's learned. Because of course heavy people never hear negative comments.

* "the courage to say it publicly". See 'not dumb and rude' confusion, above.

* "I have had this identical conversation on other boards." This is a warning sign, the internet equivalent of 'When six people tell you you're drunk, LIE DOWN.' But no.

* "I have close friends very dear to me..." blah blah. Basically this is, "I have good friends who're black!" It was a sad line in the Sixties, it's a sad line now.

Comments

[opheliasphoenix.livejournal.com]

Well said Bri!

yeah but...

[freyja.livejournal.com]

i dunno why an apology has to specifically imply "my *view itself* is wrong." because if that were the case, hardly anyone would truthfully apologize. they'd all be talking out of their asses and being phoney. hardly anyone changes their minds during discussions like this.

[kyrene.livejournal.com]

dude, we're on the list together! I thought that was you posting...

btw...

[kyrene.livejournal.com]

I both agree and disagree... I think that he's entitled to his opinion if he thinks that being fat is unattractive... but in this day and age, that opinion is best kept to yourself because it offends other people. he did state his opinion in an offensive way, but when it comes down to it, it's his opinion. he shouldn't have to apologize for feeling the way he does, but he does have to apologize for offending people in the forum with it and the way he stated it.

I'm not attracted to big men either. however, I definitely don't like them scrawny. I wanna be able to hug them and not feel bones, lol

for the record, as a skinny person, the whole convo made me feel very uncomfortable. I've been overweight (I used to weigh about 100 pounds more than I do now) and I've been on both sides of the spectrum. I remembered once I hit the 150 mark and had another 30 to go, I already had guys holding open doors and looking at me where prior to that I was invisible. It was ridiculous what a different way that I was treated in by not just guys, but everyone in general--ridiculous, and sad. We unfortunately live in a society that values thinness as being attractive. Does it make it right or wrong? What is wrong versus right in valuing personal beauty and whom you're attracted towards?

anyhow... end personal commentary. I'll go away now, quietly...

[oakenguy.livejournal.com]

You thought that was ME?? Ack!

[kyrene.livejournal.com]

nonono... I've seen your posts on the lists. not that what this guy posted was you :)

I mean, how many Oakenguys are there? lol

[oakenguy.livejournal.com]

Now I understand. :)

[kyrene.livejournal.com]

lol lol

Re: btw...

[flynngrrl.livejournal.com]

I agree. This guy sounds like he was pretty offensive to begin with, so that parts easy to not defend. Like, if someone didn't like girls with glasses, it would be rude if they said, "Hey, you, I don't think girls with glasses are cute" and appalling if they said, "Doesn't everyone here think girls with glasses should get some surgery or not ever inflect their hideousness on the world by leaving their library-like apartments? Right?"

On the other hand, I could be friends with someone who didn't find girls with glasses attractive.

People should have made the issue his incredible lack of tact and respect, not his dislike of larger ladies.

Re: yeah but...

[oakenguy.livejournal.com]

You're right. I'm being harsh partially because, well, anytime someone uses the term 'PC' it's like a red flag to me. Also, though, it was such a stupid initial post! Just like power comes with responsibility, opinions with no logic behind them come with knowing when expressing them will do more harm than good. (Which is why I have permanent bite marks on my tongue as a result of certain 'Buffy' discussions.)

Re: btw...

[oakenguy.livejournal.com]

No, don't go away!

And you're right. (See my response to Freyja, up above.)

Re: btw...

[arashel.livejournal.com]

You know what is odd, I get fine treatment from guys and girls. And I'm no "okay plus size" no Lane Bryant skinny model size...I'm big and beautiful at the moment and around err... *coughs*... 250...yeah right! Around there somewhere! XD Guys rush to open doors for me - old and young, I get help from guys and girls, strangers come up to me and just start talking to me and I have no clue why but people just come to me first and talk. Guys will come up and talk to me, help me carry things, hold doors open for me. I get checked out at times. I mean not everyone does that because the world is full of people but I've noticed when I started to just be confident on who I am and believe I am good enough, people just respond and react differently. I have to let my light shine to prove the world wrong everyday and well, I think I'm winning at the moment. That is the difference I saw once I just started liking who I am and letting off positive vibes. Now I know I'll probably have guys running after me once I get to my goal weight, ^_~ lol, maybe why I'm not in a rush to lose weight at the moment...

But I don't care what size my man is as long as he's breathing. I like them bigger, but not muscular, then again who cares about looks really. If this person is chosing just based on looks he has a big suprise in store with him when he settles down with someone and they start to age. Weight flucuates, people's looks change with age, women become pregnant...those who don't get it now, well I feel sorry for them.

Personality and soul usuaully wins me over everything else. I'm a bigger girl and wouldn't care if that is a turn off for some men or not. The world is full of people who are like that, that I won't waste my time on. I have too many things to offer someone who accepts me as me to give and I see those kind of people who have that kind of offenseive "hate" or "fear" for bigger people immature.
Someone who can't get passed the physical can't grown beyond it.

Now, nothing wrong with saying what you like and don't like but to the point of being offensive about it...I think some people need to realize the world has fu*ked them over with the whole weight issue and what to believe, excuse my language. First the trend in Hollywood is skinny and now the trend is having more meat on your bones. Serious! That is how it is. Then what is worse if you are too skinny you pretty much get nearly the same treatment, I've seen it happen.

[fightguy.livejournal.com]

Beautiful commentary, Bri. One sees this sort of thing happening all the time, on all sorts of subjects. The truly infurating part of the "non-apology apology" is not that the person always seems moved to once again state/defend his or her point of view (the opinion itself is beside the point); it's the resolute, almost willful inability to grasp why said opinion, statement, or phrasing might have been upsetting to others. It always sounds like "I'm sorry that it's all your fault." And, as you so succinctly point out, the implication that the two dozen people who have pointed out the problem must all: be whiny idiots; can't take a joke; hate me personally; not believe in free speech; so on, ad nauseam. As Gary Larson once put it: "It's not me. It's the rest of the herd that's gone crazy...".

BTW, i'm going to start using your 5th point figuratively: "Okay, that's your sixth drunk warning. On the couch! Now!" I expect a lot of blank looks, but I'll be amused... :^)

Re: btw...

[kyrene.livejournal.com]

exactly. that's the thing.

Re: btw...

[kyrene.livejournal.com]

*grins* I just hate adding fuel to the flames. but yeah, as a currently-skinny-formerly-fat person I really grok all issues of this. it's just how he stated it.

Re: btw...

[kyrene.livejournal.com]

I've met some incredibly gorgeous big women and incredibly ugly skinny ones too. it's all in how you present yourself, definitely.

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

As a fat dyke, I have only this to say:

"Who will survive the famine when it comes?"

(And, judging from the Sequel's environmental policies, the famine ain't all that far away.)

Re: yeah but...

[freyja.livejournal.com]

yeah, i agree that most opinions like that it's just better if kept to one's self. like i said, nobody's mind is changed. but at least he tried in his awkward way to apologize... *eh*

(don't expect any proper grammar from this chick)

Re: btw...

[helianthas.livejournal.com]

I need to copy your words and put them on my wall.
I'm supposedly at the "ideal weight" for my frame, but I have absolutely no confidence. I always focus on those out there who won't think I'm attractive for whatever reason instead of those who actually do or might think I'm attractive. I've heard over & over that it's all about confidence, but I just can't seem to find any without lots of external reinforcement, which I just don't get too often (most likely b/c I have no confidence, lol!)

I also hear ya on the personality and soul front. Sure, I have a "type" of guy or chick that I find attractive, but someone who doesn't turn my head when I walk in the bar might win me over in conversation. I think this is less true for guys, tho. I think attraction is more rooted in physical for guys, but, not being one, I could be wrong.

Anyway, thanks for your post. A nice reminder.

-d-

Re: btw...

[arashel.livejournal.com]

^_^ Welcome.

Confidence is hard, I have to fight every day just to be confident. I'm still shy at best but I've learned to be more open with people and can communicate and be open with strangers very easy now. Now guys on the other hand, I DO get a bit more shy when there is a guy I'm attracted to and when there is a guy I'm not attracted to...which of late hasn't been anyone, lol. But I just put my trust in my God and that He is what gives me the courage to step out, I don't get too worried about what other people are thinking. THAT is a big key into being sucessful in being confident I think. That is my hardest area to conquere but I have to go out each day not worrying and doing my own thing because I say hey, I got a lot of blessings in my life that if anyone who makes fun or me or thinks anything about me, I can laugh because I don't give a damn, that doesn't make me ME. My pop is completly like that, I'm learning to be! If someone came up to me and said I can make all your dreams come trye, you could be skinnier only if I had to give up my musical talents and voice forever, I'd be like HELL NO. That's how much I treasure myself above someone's ideal.

Re: btw...

[karyiann.livejournal.com]

Wow.. I need to think more like you. I always see myself as heavy or fat, though I'm told I'm not technically "fat" heh.. mainly though I need to be more confident in myself. For me that's a difficult task. It was very well said though! :) Thanks for the inspiring thought. :)

~ Cheri

Re: btw...

[arashel.livejournal.com]

^_^ Welcome.